RuneTrack Forums
It is currently Mon Mar 10, 2025 7:36 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:28 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:38 am
Posts: 546
I've been posting this message around on a few other fansites, but I'll post it here at RuneTrack too for further reference. :)
Sword Kill11 wrote:
Hi,

I'm Sword Kill11. As a RuneScape tool developer myself, I've been going around on multiple forums raising awareness for a potentially major issue that will arrive within the year effecting all fansites that do RuneScape stat tracking. It's very important that the stat tracking community be highly informed on this issue as it heavily effects all of us, and so we can start giving helpful and suggestive feedback as soon as possible.

As you may know, Jagex is preparing to make a huge infrastructure update, allowing players to change their Display Names (see Developer Blog: Display Names - Changing Names). Essentially, a player will have 1 Account Name (a private name identifier only known to that user) which will always remain the same, and a changeable Display Name (the name that everyone else sees in-game when they click on you, and on the hiscores). While I'm happy to see such an elaborate and desired feature coming to fruition, I feel that there's a few things which definitely need to be ironed out first.

Now, the issue: Fast-forward to later this year when this update is released. All of our stat tracking tools that have recorded a detailed history of a user's stats will obviously have to be based off of a player's Display Name, as Account Names will remain private and will only be known by the user themselves.

But, what happens when someone changes their Display Name? For example, Player A, who has a very detailed stat history on RuneTrack.com, decides to change his Display Name to Player B. As there's no mechanism to inform fansites of these instant Display Name changes, when the hiscore stat tracking programs go to capture Player A's stats - they'll get nothing. All future stat history of Player A on fansites will simply be marked with 0's and error messages. The now Player B may decide to create a new stat tracking account, but they'll obviously have to start from scratch with none of their true history being displayed, simply because they changed their Display Name.

Worse yet, what if another account swoops down and picks up the Display Name "Player A"? The stat tracking page for Player A will then show a volatile change of stats, simply laying this new account's stats over a previous owner's stats - and so on in this messy fashion for however many accounts swap in and out of the Display Name "Player A".

As you can see, this update has the potential to destroy the ability to accurately track someone's RuneScape history. With players' Display Names being swapped around, it would be impossible to have an automated system to merge and swap stat tracking accounts along with it, as there's simply no way our programs can know whether someone changes their Display Name, much less what they change it to.

Fansite Admins/Developers: Your stat tracking pages would become messy, inaccurate, and corrupted.
Players who use any stat tracking website: Every time you change your Display Name, you would have to create a new stat tracking account, and all of your previous stat history/awards would not be carried over, and may even be overwritten if someone else snags your previous Display Name. All of that interesting stat history and analysis you get from stat trackers would be no more. Even if you never change your Display Name, the stat history you look-up for other players would be inaccurate, because you won't know how many different accounts with different stats have held that Display Name in the past.

Now the good news is that Jagex is aware of this issue, and thankfully looks to be taking positive steps to come up with a solution. Mod Duncan, one of the update developers, has posted a thread in the RuneScape Forums thread, Dev Blog: Changing Names, where he is kindly answering questions and looking for feedback.

Here's a few quotes that stand out, relating to the issue:
I'm more likely to read this thread than a separate one you create :) I can see that clan members changing their names will require some paperwork, but I don't think there's much we could do to alleviate that beyond the existing friends interface changes.

Rest assured that things like hiscores-lite will still work with display names (and the lookup will be based on your display name), so there won't be two different names to track per clan member.
^ Unfortunately, this is exactly the cause of the huge issue I've outlined above - unless something is done, there will be *no* way for us to know 'if' and 'to what' someone has changed their Display Name to, as Display Names can be temporary and changed without warning.
So you just want a way for your external tool to notice name changes?

Ie if "Bob" changes their name to "Kate", you'd want a lookup for "Bob's hiscores" to return "Here are the scores. PS, Bob's name is now Kate"?

I can't make any promises but just clearing up what you're asking for.
With regards to the external sites that like to use the hiscores for lookups, we're still seeing what we can do about that. My initial thoughts about having some kind of "previously known as X" notification on the hiscore page got shot down, unfortunately. We realised it would allow hijack groups to easily track everyone's name change history - and thus work out the original account name, even after people had changed their names. This would take away one of the main points of the update (the increased security), so we're going to have to look into alternatives.
^ While this is all good information, it clearly reveals that Jagex still do not yet have any working solution.

The key solution I believe we need is a new kind of hiscores lite feed that will preserve an account name's stats for a limited amount of time on a player's previous Display Name, for users that have recently changed their Display Name. In addition to this, the feed would inform the user that this Display Name has been abandoned, as well as what that account's new Display Name is.

This would still keep Account Names secret and secure, because it would only show their future history as "This player is now known as X" for a limited time until someone new takes the abandoned Display Name, instead of past history as "This player was previously known as X" (which was Mod Duncan's initial proposal from the above quote that was shot down). The safety feature in this suggestion would be that you couldn't back-trace a Display Name, only forward-trace from the initial Display Name. Fansites would be able to trace initial sign-up Display Names forwards to learn their new Display Names, but hijackers *wouldn't* be able to trace new Display Names backwards to their original Account Names. You can click here to read more of my suggestion in further detail, or of my later follow-up post where I offer some additional analysis.

Now that you know the potentially damaging impact of this update, we need YOUR support! What can you do?
  • Formulate and post suggestions on the Dev Blog: Changing Names thread, and give constructive feedback which lets Jagex know how important this issue is.
  • Spread the word to other players - while they may not understand the exact mechanics of how stat tracking fansites work, be sure to let them know that if this update goes live without any solutions, all of those fun and interesting stat trackers they use will be no more.
  • Spread the word to other fansites in the stat tracking community. The more support we have the better.

Thank you for your time and support! :)

~ Sword Kill11
RuneTrack.com Administrator

_________________
ImageImage


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:30 pm
Posts: 8
The key thing to remember is that when someone changes their name, they don't want to be remembered by their old name. In effect, the old name becomes inactive. You should not under any circumstances attempt to link 2 names and display them both on Runetrack. Instead, you need to provide a mechanism allowing a user to update an old display name to a new one.

By running an account comparison, you should be able to verify that the 2 names are the same player. If they fail your checks, quite simply - don't update.

Firstly, only allow name updates within a reasonable time frame, say within 4 to 6 weeks. Players that monitor their stats do so regularly. It is unlikely they will front up in 3 months time and say oh btw, I am ... and if they do, they coudn't have been all that interested in their stat history.

Next, test that all skills in the new account are greather than or equal to the old account. You should also check the minigame scores.

Thirdly, you have some very interesting data at your fingertips - their average xp rates over time. Depending on how much history you have stored, you could project the xp rates on the old account to the new and determine if the overall xp difference is feasibly within range.

Finally, before you change any name, store the details of the update in a separate table. If somehow, someone manages to slip though with an invalid name link, you can always rollback the name change.

When you think about it, is it really of any great consequence if someone manages to link 2 different accounts? They gain nothing but short term recognition for records they may not have achieved. For a legitimate change, the worst thing that can happen is they lose some history.

Some users may be keen to ensure they lose none of their stat history and will provide details as they change their name. These accounts would be very easy to identify. It may also be that Jagex displays the data for both names for a short period of time allowing you to test for an identical match.

For your daily updates, once a name stops registering data, you really have no other option but to put it in stasis. There's no reason it can't still feed the historical records, but you should highlight that the name is now inactive.


I'm sure some of this will be quite challenging to write, but then... isn't that why you do it?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:56 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:38 am
Posts: 546
Hi Maxromulan,

Thanks for the post. :) I've already typed up a ton on this issue on this thread over at the FFDN Forums: http://ffdn36.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1325 - so I'll keep this short in not repeating what I said over there.

Essentially, yes - worst case scenario I can always rig up a way for people to manually redirect their User Profiles to new Display Names via a stat confirmation as you outlined. But again, this would only be feasible for just those players who regularly check their stat tracking profiles.
maxromulan wrote:
Firstly, only allow name updates within a reasonable time frame, say within 4 to 6 weeks. Players that monitor their stats do so regularly. It is unlikely they will front up in 3 months time and say oh btw, I am ... and if they do, they coudn't have been all that interested in their stat history.

Ah, but that's the very thing I feel I need to emphasize more - a User Profile isn't merely for that player themselves, but serves as a public archive of knowledge for everyone to view and refer to. Just because someone wouldn't care about updating their own Display Name, doesn't mean a lot of other people don't care either, especially when it comes to top ranked players. If RuneTrack somehow required a registered user to view their User Profile every month or it would be removed - I guarantee that there would be a lot less User Profiles. But in doing so, it would destroy a wealth of data on many players in which other people would miss.

Keep in mind that many User Profiles were created & initialized by people other than that user themselves who were just interested in viewing their stats. RuneTrack is just as much geared towards global tracking as it is individual. For example, I doubt all Top 15 RuneScape players use RuneTrack - yet all of their User Profiles were created, initialized, and are highly often viewed. Same goes for hundreds of other names. If any of them just happens to change their Display Name - of course, not knowing anything about RuneTrack, they wouldn't manually redirect their Display Name setting - and their RuneTrack account would die then and there.

RuneTrack's principles are somewhat similar to that of the purpose of a search engine - RuneTrack collects, stores, and analyzes tons of information on a daily basis. And to keep everything running as smoothly as it has been, the collection process really can't rely on a specific user manually telling RuneTrack to update their name information at a specific time. For every account to truly be covered and for none to slip through the cracks, the process needs to be automated.

_________________
ImageImage


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:30 pm
Posts: 8
Hi Sword Kill11

I'm not part of FFDN and even though I was made aware of it through friends in FFDN, I felt it more appropriate to post here.

I still think you're worrying about nothing. What you do here is track stat history and history should not be modified. The records were achieved by the names you have recorded. That they might have assumed a new name is of no concern. If a player chooses to link those names, then so long as you only display the new name that is enough.

Sword Kill11 wrote:
Ah, but that's the very thing I feel I need to emphasize more - a User Profile isn't merely for that player themselves, but serves as a public archive of knowledge for everyone to view and refer to. Just because someone wouldn't care about updating their own Display Name, doesn't mean a lot of other people don't care either, especially when it comes to top ranked players

If someone chooses to change their name for whatever reason, then that is their privilege and at their discretion. If they are a top player, they must be aware they will sacrifice their reputation - indeed, that is probably why they are changing it - an attempt to avoid some of the constant scrutiny. Who they choose to tell is their own business. Just because someone else feels they would *like* to know doesn't necessarily mean they have the *right* to know.

The only thing affected in your program is historical skill records. Simply display them with the old user name and highlight that this name is now inactive. Aren't the main things people look for the daily records and the all time records? Daily records belong to the new name and the all time records were achieved by the old. It is not so much the owner, but the achievement itself that is important.

I am sure everyone will be well aware that they are going to not recognise a lot of names.

They key thing I cannot stress enough is that you must not under any circumstance attempt to display both the old and the new name. This would be a gross invasion of privacy and would completely negate the whole purpose of the name change update.

Sword Kill11 wrote:
RuneTrack's principles are somewhat similar to that of the purpose of a search engine - RuneTrack collects, stores, and analyzes tons of information on a daily basis. And to keep everything running as smoothly as it has been, the collection process really can't rely on a specific user manually telling RuneTrack to update their name information at a specific time. For every account to truly be covered and for none to slip through the cracks, the process needs to be automated.

If you were collecting data on each and every player in the Top 1000, Top 500 or even the Top 100, I might consider this to be more valid. It would be interesting to see how many of the top account names stored on here were added by the owners themselves.

Your account creation process requires that someone has their sig viewed by multiple ip addresses. I presumed this was done in an attempt to ensure people only created profiles for their own usernames.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:01 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:38 am
Posts: 546
Hi again,

Thanks for the reply. :) Just a few things I noticed in what you said that I think I need to clarify my position on:

maxromulan wrote:
The records were achieved by the names you have recorded. That they might have assumed a new name is of no concern.
That's true indeed - their records/history should and will stay listed, even if they abandon the Display Name. However, the problem comes when someone completely new comes along and sweeps up that abandoned Display Name. Then the RuneTrack record page for that Display Name becomes inaccurate, because that new account gets the false fame or being marked as achieving those records/history, when in fact it was from some other account long before them who did it.

That's why I feel a User Profile needs to be attached to someone's actual account and not just a Display Name - so all of their stat Global Records will stick with them, no matter what new Display Name they choose.

maxromulan wrote:
Just because someone else feels they would *like* to know doesn't necessarily mean they have the *right* to know.
...
They key thing I cannot stress enough is that you must not under any circumstance attempt to display both the old and the new name. This would be a gross invasion of privacy and would completely negate the whole purpose of the name change update.
Ah, I see. This is where I think we have a fundamental disagreement.

I believe that someone's name change history needs to be publicly available. While I completely agree that it's great that people have a right to change their Display Name if they like, I don't believe that this information should be concealed/"anonymitized". I feel that it's Jagex's obligation to ensure that people who did change their Display Name are still held accountable for their actions, and shouldn't be purposefully hiding something so basic as someone's identity away from everyone else. This has implications far beyond the specific means of just stat tracking sites, but to the RuneScape community as a whole.

I think we'd see is a sharp decline in player accountability and responsibility. Just as a general example, a clan member in a clan could act up and get himself banned from the clan - then just change his Display Name the next day and rejoin, without anyone ever knowing that it's him because they won't allow us to view past name history.

The a major thing I believe that keeps people in check on the internet is their personal reputation - if they act up, they have to deal with the consequences in having that associated with their name - be it on a forum or in-game. All this is going to teach people is that you can do or say whatever you want, then just change your Display Name, and Jagex will back you up so you'll never have deal with any of the consequences.

I'm still very hopeful that Jagex will be able to find/use a nice solution for this, though regardless I'll still be publicly linking old and new Display Names together wherever possible. I know if I ever decide to change my Display Name when this update comes later this year, I would want that information publicly available so people would know for certain that the new owner of the Display Name "Sword Kill11" wouldn't be me, and would allow them to contact me at my new Display Name. In my opinion, the only people who would feel that that was an "invasion of privacy" was if they had something bad to hide from their past actions on another Display Name, trying to sneak back into a clan from which they were banned from, etc.

maxromulan wrote:
Your account creation process requires that someone has their sig viewed by multiple ip addresses. I presumed this was done in an attempt to ensure people only created profiles for their own usernames.
Not exactly - more of an effort to conserve database space.

So basically - I created the ip viewing requirement to ensure that RuneTrack accounts were only created to track users who people actually cared about having tracked, so lots of database space wasn't wasted on users that no one really cared to track, but because the registration process was so quick/easy, just typed their name in anyway. I imagine that most of the time, the person who cared most about seeing Player X's stats tracked was Player X. But there's also a lot of cases where other players may have wanted to see Player X's stats tracked, so they helped unlock the User Profile for them.

For example, take a look at the User Profile for Frodo_5021, Rank 19: http://runetrack.com/profile.php?user=Frodo_5021 . I can practically assume that Frodo_5021 doesn't even know about RuneTrack, but his profile still attracts a view each time someone new searches for his name on RuneTrack (remember that his stat signature is appearing at the bottom of his unlocked tracking page, so technically people only need to view his unlocked User Profile and not even post his stat signature elsewhere to collect views). Eventually his User Profile will become unlocked without him ever knowing about RuneTrack, nor anyone else posting his stat signature elsewhere to attract views.

Again, I think we may just disagree on a few things here, but I appreciate all the constructive dialogue all the same. :)

_________________
ImageImage


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:30 pm
Posts: 8
That's really disappointing you feel you have that right to display the name change history Sword Kill11.

I'm sure that there will be a few that change their names for the wrong reasons, but what about all those that do so for their own valid reasons. You are not judge and jury. In fact, what you display here is statistical history - simple non-biased data. It has absolutely nothing to do with reputations.

One of the key reasons behind this update was Jagex felt it would help account security. What is the point in them doing this if you go and display the name change history - especially when a lot of the people you are tracking are those with top level accounts - the very ones that have repeated hack attempts made against them.

There are also other genuine reasons why someone might change their name. For example, some people (especially famous ones) are constantly harassed and abused in game. I know of many high levelled players that have quit RS because of the never-ending personal attacks from strangers. Others may just want to move on and make a fresh start without having to lose all their hard work to date - this is a game after all, not a lifelong career.

Jagex would have researched this thoroughly and if they feel the the public has no right to know both names, then really, you do not have the right to display them.

You should be able to very quickly tell if an old name has been overtaken by a new account. In this case you should attach a version number and display them as 2 distinct names.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:12 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:47 am
Posts: 4
I want to start off by saying both of you two have wonderful points. :)

I am quite mixed on this issue honestly, I really don't agree with the fact that you can change your name, however if it's what the majority asked for then so be it, I just know I won't be one of the majority. However, with that being said I wanted to point out a few things in response to your posts.

maxromulan wrote:
One of the key reasons behind this update was Jagex felt it would help account security. What is the point in them doing this if you go and display the name change history - especially when a lot of the people you are tracking are those with top level accounts - the very ones that have repeated hack attempts made against them.

There are also other genuine reasons why someone might change their name. For example, some people (especially famous ones) are constantly harassed and abused in game. I know of many high levelled players that have quit RS because of the never-ending personal attacks from strangers. Others may just want to move on and make a fresh start without having to lose all their hard work to date - this is a game after all, not a lifelong career.


Anyone who watches the high scores and the xp/ranks of the higher lvl's players will know when the person they are watching suddenly disappears from the ranks and is instantly replaced by a new name with the same totals. For example: I know just by looking at page 1 of the RC scores who has changed their names and what their names have been changed to. Also if you were rank 200 in a skill, I'm sure you'd know who was in rank 199 and would also notice if their name changed. So regardless if they changed it to try to prevent hacking attempts or to start fresh, someone will know what it was changed to and for those who care to know they will and can eventually find out. So in my opinion I really don't think this will prevent any of those occurrences from happening.

The only people that this really won't affect too much is those individuals that are so far down the ranks that noone really keeps track of them, such as rank 23,430. However, I'm sure alot of those players have probably told a few of their friends and words spread quickly, so trying to get away and start fresh isn't as easy as it may seem.

Sword Kill11 wrote:
I think we'd see is a sharp decline in player accountability and responsibility. Just as a general example, a clan member in a clan could act up and get himself banned from the clan - then just change his Display Name the next day and rejoin, without anyone ever knowing that it's him because they won't allow us to view past name history.

The a major thing I believe that keeps people in check on the internet is their personal reputation - if they act up, they have to deal with the consequences in having that associated with their name - be it on a forum or in-game. All this is going to teach people is that you can do or say whatever you want, then just change your Display Name, and Jagex will back you up so you'll never have deal with any of the consequences.


I could not agree with you more. This name changing could be abused in so many ways and the only real recourse we would have is the report option, but how often is that used and nothing is ever resolved with it?

_________________
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:27 pm
Posts: 3
Go runetrack

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:34 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:21 am
Posts: 161
Location: Australia
Runetrack ftw! best stat tracking site there is.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 22 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group